Shipping T/C advice
10-28-2003 | 05:44 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Shipping T/C advice
I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
container of some kind be able to do the job?
it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
container of some kind be able to do the job?
10-28-2003 | 05:53 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
10-28-2003 | 05:53 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
10-28-2003 | 05:53 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
KH
"Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold
a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
10-28-2003 | 05:54 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Nope, I'm actually giving the guy a screaming deal. It might be cheaper to
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
10-28-2003 | 05:54 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Nope, I'm actually giving the guy a screaming deal. It might be cheaper to
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
10-28-2003 | 05:54 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Nope, I'm actually giving the guy a screaming deal. It might be cheaper to
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
throw it away! I'm sure I burned through about $20 worth of spare lumber
building the first crate :-( Not to mention spent my lunch hour out at
FedEx today.
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1zBnb.122922$gv5.108399@fed1read05...
> I hope you are selling it for a bunch. Hehe. All those hours of packaging!
> What if you take it to a postal store and have them deal with it.
> KH
>
> "Kevin Sperle" <ksperle@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctBnb.1021$Aa6.33506@news.uswest.net...
> > I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate
> for
> > it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs
63
> > lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's
> ground
> > limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
> >
> > The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> > shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> > containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could
hold
> a
> > 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
> >
> > I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had
> around
> > the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> > container of some kind be able to do the job?
> >
> >
>
>
10-28-2003 | 06:20 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Sorry to mention the obvious, but what about UPS?
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
10-28-2003 | 06:20 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Sorry to mention the obvious, but what about UPS?
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
10-28-2003 | 06:20 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Shipping T/C advice
Sorry to mention the obvious, but what about UPS?
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
Kevin Sperle wrote:
> I'm selling a NP229 transfer case that weighs 108 lbs. I built a crate for
> it, and never being one to under-build something..... the crate weighs 63
> lbs, which puts it at a combined 171 which is 20 pounds over FedEx's ground
> limit. What can I use to ship it that weighs less?
>
> The crate I made was 20 X 22 X 30. The new one can be at least 2 inches
> shorter on each side. 18 X 20 X 26 would probably do it. Are there any
> containers anybody can think of that meet these dimensions and could hold a
> 108 lb T/C and don't weigh over say 40 pounds ??
>
> I could build a new crate out of 1 x 1's instead of 2X4's (all I had around
> the grage).. But it was kind of a PIA. Would a rubbermaid or plastic
> container of some kind be able to do the job?
>
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940
Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________