Matt Osborn

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:14:01 -0500, "DougW"
<post.replies@invalid.address> wrote:

>I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
>or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
>it's a fully sustainable product.

As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.

Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.

Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.




-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:14:01 -0500, "DougW"
<post.replies@invalid.address> wrote:

>I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
>or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
>it's a fully sustainable product.

As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.

Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.

Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.




-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Matt Osborn

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:14:01 -0500, "DougW"
<post.replies@invalid.address> wrote:

>I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
>or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
>it's a fully sustainable product.

As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.

Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.

Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.




-- msosborn at msosborn dot com

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Matt,
Yes, it takes up to "six times more energy is used to make
ethanol":
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG1VDF6EM1.DTL
And where does the farmer get his energy?
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
> one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.
>
> Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
> replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.
>
> Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
> has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Matt,
Yes, it takes up to "six times more energy is used to make
ethanol":
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG1VDF6EM1.DTL
And where does the farmer get his energy?
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
> one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.
>
> Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
> replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.
>
> Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
> has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Matt,
Yes, it takes up to "six times more energy is used to make
ethanol":
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG1VDF6EM1.DTL
And where does the farmer get his energy?
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
> one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.
>
> Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
> replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.
>
> Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
> has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Matt,
Yes, it takes up to "six times more energy is used to make
ethanol":
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG1VDF6EM1.DTL
And where does the farmer get his energy?
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt, Osborn wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
> one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.
>
> Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
> replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.
>
> Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
> has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.
>
> -- msosborn at msosborn dot com

Tom Greening

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>


Just like anything, take the below with a grain of salt. I'm sure everyone, no matter which camp they are in, have their own agenda.
(I didn't write it, I just found it interesting considering the accusations that have been flying)


This is a post from a fellow over in Merritt Is, FL, a reporter who's been researching what went on before the storm hit

I think all of Mayor Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to light.

On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of New Orleans and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act).


Just before midnight
Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up.


He was told that they didn't think
it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in.

Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation.

After a personal plea from the President, Mayor Nagin agreed to order an
evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action.


In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster


area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to New Orleans for levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the gambling ships.


Toss in the investigation that will look into why the emergency


preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document implies that they were.

The suffering people of New Orleans need to be asking some hard questions as do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining states.


Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should


have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.

Tom Greening

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>


Just like anything, take the below with a grain of salt. I'm sure everyone, no matter which camp they are in, have their own agenda.
(I didn't write it, I just found it interesting considering the accusations that have been flying)


This is a post from a fellow over in Merritt Is, FL, a reporter who's been researching what went on before the storm hit

I think all of Mayor Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to light.

On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of New Orleans and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act).


Just before midnight
Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up.


He was told that they didn't think
it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in.

Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation.

After a personal plea from the President, Mayor Nagin agreed to order an
evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action.


In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster


area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to New Orleans for levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the gambling ships.


Toss in the investigation that will look into why the emergency


preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document implies that they were.

The suffering people of New Orleans need to be asking some hard questions as do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining states.


Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should


have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.

Tom Greening

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>


Just like anything, take the below with a grain of salt. I'm sure everyone, no matter which camp they are in, have their own agenda.
(I didn't write it, I just found it interesting considering the accusations that have been flying)


This is a post from a fellow over in Merritt Is, FL, a reporter who's been researching what went on before the storm hit

I think all of Mayor Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to light.

On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of New Orleans and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act).


Just before midnight
Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up.


He was told that they didn't think
it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in.

Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation.

After a personal plea from the President, Mayor Nagin agreed to order an
evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action.


In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster


area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to New Orleans for levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the gambling ships.


Toss in the investigation that will look into why the emergency


preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document implies that they were.

The suffering people of New Orleans need to be asking some hard questions as do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining states.


Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should


have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.