Curtis Rager

It is amazing how we are all fooled that Hydrogen just appears in a tank and
we will be able to fill our cars for free! Unless we come up with a great
idea to separate Hydrogen from what it wants to combine with (Oxygen) we are
SOL. I hope some great scientist can do this for less energy than it gives
off when combining with oxygen again, but I am not holding my breath. I am
a "Bush" supporter, but I am not a supporter of the hydrogen fuel
initiatives. I would rather see more scientific research into making 60 mpg
diesels. Jetta has a 50 mpg diesel!
Why would you buy an electric hybrid with all the motors and associated
electronics to go wrong when you can buy a VW diesel that gets nearly the
same gas mileage and any diesel mechanic can work on it ?! I am an
electrical engineer and I am scared to try to troubleshoot an electric
hybrid. And the batteries...don't get me going (more pollution than burning
good old gas). Now, for all the taxis in NYC - it would be great if they
ran on something less polluting. Natural Gas - that may be the answer.

Curtis


"griffin" <gryffy@DELTHISshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7u7jd.134200$%k.43633@pd7tw2no...
> > Do your homework before you tiptoe off thru lala land. Your first
> > assignment is to discover where that hydrogen comes from and how it
> > is extracted.
>
> Main sources: natural gas, coal, biomass, water. Look to the future,
bright
> eyes ...water.
>
>
> > Then continue to discover what happens to a mixture
> > of hydrogen and ordinary air as the hydrogen is burned and whether
> > the resulting products are pure water as suggested by the scientific
> > illiterate or something a bit less pristine as happens in the real
> > world.
>
> When created through natural gas extraction, yes there are pollutants.
When
> used to power a fuel cell to run an engine, it's only real byproduct is
> water. Very low pollution all around though when compared to current
> methods - but it needs to be developed for an efficient mass-scale.
>
>
> > And for the grand finale, compute the total cycle energy
> > costs of actually producing and distributing all that hydrogen.
>
> I believe H has the highest energy content by weight of any available fuel
> and when they can efficiently produce, store, and use it ...it will be
alot
> easier on the enviro than any currently used fuel. Especially when you
> consider the amount of energy and fuel used to transport oil barrels from
> overseas (not even including the damage done by spills).
>
> > Then take another look at the energy densities available with
ordinary
> old
> > lowly gasoline scrubbed clean by a cat convertor.
>
> For now. It's like trying to explain the benefits of steam over coal to an
> 1820's train operator. Give it time.
>
>

SoK66

Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to the
hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who used
to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive on
biodiesel.


"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order to
> keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> when
> they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
>
>
>
>
> "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
>> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
>> question
> not
>> a troll.
>>
>> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
>> it
>> cheaper than gasoline?
>> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
>
>

SoK66

Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to the
hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who used
to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive on
biodiesel.


"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order to
> keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> when
> they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
>
>
>
>
> "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
>> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
>> question
> not
>> a troll.
>>
>> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
>> it
>> cheaper than gasoline?
>> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
>
>

SoK66

Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to the
hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who used
to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive on
biodiesel.


"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order to
> keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> when
> they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
>
>
>
>
> "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
>> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
>> question
> not
>> a troll.
>>
>> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
>> it
>> cheaper than gasoline?
>> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
>
>

Ted Azito

If everyone tried to turn old burger grease into fuel, the burger
grease supply would vanish. The OBG supply of the entire nation for a
year wouldn't run LA for two days. But that's irrelevant to whether it
makes sense for anyone to do it. If you are the only person in a small
town or on the block in a city and you can get the OBG free and you
want to do it for a hobby or out of curiosity that's well and fine. In
some areas OBG costs McD's money to haul it off. One or two OBG
burners could save everyone money then.

But if it was all dollars and cents why do you have a four wheel
drive when a Honda Civic is cheaper and taking the bus cheaper yet?

Ted Azito

If everyone tried to turn old burger grease into fuel, the burger
grease supply would vanish. The OBG supply of the entire nation for a
year wouldn't run LA for two days. But that's irrelevant to whether it
makes sense for anyone to do it. If you are the only person in a small
town or on the block in a city and you can get the OBG free and you
want to do it for a hobby or out of curiosity that's well and fine. In
some areas OBG costs McD's money to haul it off. One or two OBG
burners could save everyone money then.

But if it was all dollars and cents why do you have a four wheel
drive when a Honda Civic is cheaper and taking the bus cheaper yet?

Ted Azito

If everyone tried to turn old burger grease into fuel, the burger
grease supply would vanish. The OBG supply of the entire nation for a
year wouldn't run LA for two days. But that's irrelevant to whether it
makes sense for anyone to do it. If you are the only person in a small
town or on the block in a city and you can get the OBG free and you
want to do it for a hobby or out of curiosity that's well and fine. In
some areas OBG costs McD's money to haul it off. One or two OBG
burners could save everyone money then.

But if it was all dollars and cents why do you have a four wheel
drive when a Honda Civic is cheaper and taking the bus cheaper yet?

Jeff Strickland

All of that is all well and good, but it ignores the facts that refiners
have made a conscious effort to cut back production and storage, thereby
limiting supply in order to raise prices.

OK, maybe the conscious effort wasn't all that conscious, maybe it is
reflective of regulatory mandates as well as mergers among the refineries
and shippers. In any case, without any regulation otherwise, why would
anybody sell two for a dollar when they can get away with selling one for
two dollars? Why sell a gallon for a dollar when they can sell a half gallon
for two dollars?

In any case, don't hold your breath waiting for energy prices to fall - ANY
energy prices. They will only go up from here.





"SoK66" <SoK66@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:cmr8vq02oet@enews1.newsguy.com...
> Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
> for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
> fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
> prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to
the
> hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who
used
> to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
> same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive
on
> biodiesel.
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> > Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order
to
> > keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> > when
> > they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> > news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
> >> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
> >> question
> > not
> >> a troll.
> >>
> >> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
> >> it
> >> cheaper than gasoline?
> >> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
> >
> >
>
>

Jeff Strickland

All of that is all well and good, but it ignores the facts that refiners
have made a conscious effort to cut back production and storage, thereby
limiting supply in order to raise prices.

OK, maybe the conscious effort wasn't all that conscious, maybe it is
reflective of regulatory mandates as well as mergers among the refineries
and shippers. In any case, without any regulation otherwise, why would
anybody sell two for a dollar when they can get away with selling one for
two dollars? Why sell a gallon for a dollar when they can sell a half gallon
for two dollars?

In any case, don't hold your breath waiting for energy prices to fall - ANY
energy prices. They will only go up from here.





"SoK66" <SoK66@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:cmr8vq02oet@enews1.newsguy.com...
> Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
> for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
> fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
> prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to
the
> hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who
used
> to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
> same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive
on
> biodiesel.
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> > Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order
to
> > keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> > when
> > they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> > news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
> >> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
> >> question
> > not
> >> a troll.
> >>
> >> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
> >> it
> >> cheaper than gasoline?
> >> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
> >
> >
>
>

Jeff Strickland

All of that is all well and good, but it ignores the facts that refiners
have made a conscious effort to cut back production and storage, thereby
limiting supply in order to raise prices.

OK, maybe the conscious effort wasn't all that conscious, maybe it is
reflective of regulatory mandates as well as mergers among the refineries
and shippers. In any case, without any regulation otherwise, why would
anybody sell two for a dollar when they can get away with selling one for
two dollars? Why sell a gallon for a dollar when they can sell a half gallon
for two dollars?

In any case, don't hold your breath waiting for energy prices to fall - ANY
energy prices. They will only go up from here.





"SoK66" <SoK66@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:cmr8vq02oet@enews1.newsguy.com...
> Home heating oil and diesel are virtually the same. There is always demand
> for the former in the winter nmonths when the old homes in the Northeast
> fire up their oil burning furnaces. This year it's compounded by high oil
> prices, and damage to platforms and refineries in the Gulf states due to
the
> hurricanes. The pricing is giving a boost to bio-diesel producers, who
used
> to have a big pricing disadvantage. However, here it's now virtually the
> same. Local scuttlebutt from diesel pickup drivers has been very positive
on
> biodiesel.
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:10ovslh8a1hvu31@corp.supernews.com...
> > Because of Supply and Demand. The refiners keep the supply low in order
to
> > keep prices high. Why would they make a gallon and sell it for a dollar
> > when
> > they can make a half-gallon and sell it for two dollars?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Wblane" <wblane@aol.combotizer> wrote in message
> > news:20041104165622.06439.00000105@mb-m18.aol.com...
> >> If you don't want to read this thread then don't. This is a legit
> >> question
> > not
> >> a troll.
> >>
> >> I always though diesel fuel was less refined than gasoline so why isn't
> >> it
> >> cheaper than gasoline?
> >> -Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
> >
> >
>
>