Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

The city mains are probably steel or cast iron. If you let the water tap
run for a few seconds you will flush out the lead contaminated water.



"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:NlYLe.89220$G8.13859@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> Just the entrance pipes.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
> news:5cf08$42ffff43$42a1cc8c$6643@FUSE.NET...
>> Are all the pipes lead or just the entrance pipes?
>>
>> http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/
>>
>>
>>
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> news:poKLe.88801$G8.352@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> > I'm not sure if you are serious or not :-)
>> > I have lead pipes in my house - they have been there for 70 years. It
>> > isn't
>> > a problem now as the minerals in the water have leached out to form an
>> > internal coating just as your kettle furs up over time in 'hard water'
>> > areas. My grandfather and grandmother lived in that house since 1934 -
> he
>> > died aged 96, and she is still going strong at 91.
>> >
>> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> >
>> > "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> > news:6f4bd$42ff63fe$42a1cc8c$25528@FUSE.NET...
>> >> What about the recent theory that the affluent slowly poisoned
> themselves
>> >> via the lead pipes they used for all their plumbing?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> >> news:lKHLe.88730$G8.30203@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> >> > "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of
>> >> > immoderate
>> >> > greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of
> the
>> >> > destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as
>> >> > time
>> >> > or
>> >> > accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric
>> >> > yielded
>> >> > to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple
> and
>> >> > obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed
> we
>> >> > should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
> [Gibbon,
>> >> > Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J. B.
>> >> > Bury
>> >> > (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]
>> >> >
>> >> > In other words, the wolf at the top of the hill is not as keen as
>> >> > the
>> > wolf
>> >> > at the bottom. Do you think America will be the top dog in another
> 500
>> >> > years
>> >> > ? Every dog/wolf has their day !
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> >> >
>> >> > "Ruel Smith" <NoWay@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:7379e$42ff4460$453deea8$10145@FUSE.NET...
>> >> >> >>From what I history I have read, the decline of many a
> civilization
>> > is
>> >> >> > really caused by the destruction of the middle class. That was
>> >> >> > certainly true in the decline of the Roman Empire. They kicked
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > whole lot of butt in the known world and it eventually drained
> their
>> >> >> > treasury dry trying to defend their over stressed borders..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They also developed a welfare system, started having orgies, got
>> >> >> fat
>> > and
>> >> >> lazy... By the time Rome fell, it wasn't even close to being the
>> >> > powerhouse
>> >> >> that it was under Julius Caesar.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Sorry, I did not read the website in detail. There was show on educational
TV years ago that I recalled watching. I got that site from google
searching the terms "rome lead toxicity"

here is a list of direct references


Lead and the Fall of Rome: A Bibliography
Originally posted March 23, 1998.
Since the nineteenth century, there have been sporadic suggestions that the
large-scale use of lead in antiquity contributed to the fall of Rome through
heavy-metal poisoning.

A request to the always-generous members of LT-ANTIQ for bibliography on
this question produced the following results. Enjoy!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online Bibliographies of Late Antiquity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Books and Articles
Eisinger, J., "Lead and wine: Eberhard Gockel and the 'colica Pictonum' ",
Medical History, 26 (1982): 278-302.
Eisinger, Josef, "Sweet poison. Episodic outbreaks of colic, or 'wine
disease,' plagued Europe for many centuries, even after an obscure German
physician traced the cause to lead," Natural History 105 (July 96): 48-53.

Gilfillan, S.C. "Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome," Journal of
Occupational Medicine, 1 (1965): 53-60.

Gilfillan, S. Colum. Rome's Ruin by Lead Poison. Long Beach, CA, 1990.

Hodge, T. A. "Vitruvius, lead pipes, and lead poisoning," American Journal
of Archaeology 85 (1981): 486-491.

Karlen, Arno Napoleon's Glands and Other Ventures in Biohistory. Toronto,
1984.

Needleman, Lionel and Diane. "Lead poisoning and the decline of the Roman
aristocracy," Classical Views 4,1 (1985): 63-94.

Nriagu, J.O. Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity. New York, 1983.

Nriagu, Jerome O. "Saturnine Gout among Roman Aristocrats: Did Lead
Poisoning Contribute to the Fall of the Empire?", New England Journal of
Medicine, 308.11 (March 17, 1983): 660-3.

Scarborough, John. "The myth of lead poisoning among the Romans: a review
essay," Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, 39,4 (1984):
469-475.

Skovenborg, Erik. "Lead in wine through the ages," Journal of Wine Research
6, 1 (1995).

Steinbock, R. Ted. "Lead Ingestion in Ancient Times," Paleopathology
Newsletter , no. 27 (Sept. 1979): 9-11.

Waldron, H.A. "Lead Poisoning in the Ancient World," Medical History, 17
(1973): 391-399.


2. Reviews of Nriagu, Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity.
Chisolm, J. Julian, Jr, in Bulletin of the History of Medicine 59 (1985):
258-9.
Houston, George W., in Classical Journal (1989-90), 73-5, and 80.

Scarborough, John, in The Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied
Sciences 39 (1984): 469-75.

Phillips, Charles Robert III. "Old Wine in Old Lead Bottles: Nriagu on the
Fall of Rome," CW 78 (1984), 29-33.


Other Aspects of Ancient Heavy Metal Pollution
Hong, Sungmin, "Greenland ice evidence of hemispheric lead pollution two
millenia ago by Greek and Roman civilizations," Science 265 (23 Sept 94):
1841-1843.
Nriagu, Jerome O., "Global metal pollution," Environment, 32 (Sept 90):
6-11+?.

Nriagu, Jerome O., "A history of global metal pollution," Science 272 (12
Apr 96): 223-224.

"From silver, toxic lining in ancient atmosphere," New York Times (Late NY
edition) 27 Sept 94, C6.





"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:gpYLe.89222$G8.46395@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> As your article said:
> Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes would not have
> caused
> contamination for two reasons: (1) because the Roman water contained high
> concentrations of calcium which formed deposits inside the pipes,
> insulating
> the lead and (2) because lead will never greatly affect running water.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:NlYLe.89220$G8.13859@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> Just the entrance pipes.
>>
>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> news:5cf08$42ffff43$42a1cc8c$6643@FUSE.NET...
>> > Are all the pipes lead or just the entrance pipes?
>> >
>> > http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > news:poKLe.88801$G8.352@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> > > I'm not sure if you are serious or not :-)
>> > > I have lead pipes in my house - they have been there for 70 years. It
>> > > isn't
>> > > a problem now as the minerals in the water have leached out to form
>> > > an
>> > > internal coating just as your kettle furs up over time in 'hard
>> > > water'
>> > > areas. My grandfather and grandmother lived in that house since
>> > > 1934 -
>> he
>> > > died aged 96, and she is still going strong at 91.
>> > >
>> > > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >
>> > > "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:6f4bd$42ff63fe$42a1cc8c$25528@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> What about the recent theory that the affluent slowly poisoned
>> themselves
>> > >> via the lead pipes they used for all their plumbing?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > >> news:lKHLe.88730$G8.30203@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > >> > "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of
>> > >> > immoderate
>> > >> > greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of
>> the
>> > >> > destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > time
>> > >> > or
>> > >> > accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous
>> > >> > fabric
>> > >> > yielded
>> > >> > to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple
>> and
>> > >> > obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was
> destroyed
>> we
>> > >> > should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
>> [Gibbon,
>> > >> > Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J.
>> > >> > B.
>> > >> > Bury
>> > >> > (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]
>> > >> >
>> > >> > In other words, the wolf at the top of the hill is not as keen as
> the
>> > > wolf
>> > >> > at the bottom. Do you think America will be the top dog in another
>> 500
>> > >> > years
>> > >> > ? Every dog/wolf has their day !
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >> >
>> > >> > "Ruel Smith" <NoWay@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
>> > >> > news:7379e$42ff4460$453deea8$10145@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> >> >>From what I history I have read, the decline of many a
>> civilization
>> > > is
>> > >> >> > really caused by the destruction of the middle class. That
>> > >> >> > was
>> > >> >> > certainly true in the decline of the Roman Empire. They
>> > >> >> > kicked
> a
>> > >> >> > whole lot of butt in the known world and it eventually drained
>> their
>> > >> >> > treasury dry trying to defend their over stressed borders..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> They also developed a welfare system, started having orgies, got
> fat
>> > > and
>> > >> >> lazy... By the time Rome fell, it wasn't even close to being the
>> > >> > powerhouse
>> > >> >> that it was under Julius Caesar.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Sorry, I did not read the website in detail. There was show on educational
TV years ago that I recalled watching. I got that site from google
searching the terms "rome lead toxicity"

here is a list of direct references


Lead and the Fall of Rome: A Bibliography
Originally posted March 23, 1998.
Since the nineteenth century, there have been sporadic suggestions that the
large-scale use of lead in antiquity contributed to the fall of Rome through
heavy-metal poisoning.

A request to the always-generous members of LT-ANTIQ for bibliography on
this question produced the following results. Enjoy!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online Bibliographies of Late Antiquity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Books and Articles
Eisinger, J., "Lead and wine: Eberhard Gockel and the 'colica Pictonum' ",
Medical History, 26 (1982): 278-302.
Eisinger, Josef, "Sweet poison. Episodic outbreaks of colic, or 'wine
disease,' plagued Europe for many centuries, even after an obscure German
physician traced the cause to lead," Natural History 105 (July 96): 48-53.

Gilfillan, S.C. "Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome," Journal of
Occupational Medicine, 1 (1965): 53-60.

Gilfillan, S. Colum. Rome's Ruin by Lead Poison. Long Beach, CA, 1990.

Hodge, T. A. "Vitruvius, lead pipes, and lead poisoning," American Journal
of Archaeology 85 (1981): 486-491.

Karlen, Arno Napoleon's Glands and Other Ventures in Biohistory. Toronto,
1984.

Needleman, Lionel and Diane. "Lead poisoning and the decline of the Roman
aristocracy," Classical Views 4,1 (1985): 63-94.

Nriagu, J.O. Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity. New York, 1983.

Nriagu, Jerome O. "Saturnine Gout among Roman Aristocrats: Did Lead
Poisoning Contribute to the Fall of the Empire?", New England Journal of
Medicine, 308.11 (March 17, 1983): 660-3.

Scarborough, John. "The myth of lead poisoning among the Romans: a review
essay," Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, 39,4 (1984):
469-475.

Skovenborg, Erik. "Lead in wine through the ages," Journal of Wine Research
6, 1 (1995).

Steinbock, R. Ted. "Lead Ingestion in Ancient Times," Paleopathology
Newsletter , no. 27 (Sept. 1979): 9-11.

Waldron, H.A. "Lead Poisoning in the Ancient World," Medical History, 17
(1973): 391-399.


2. Reviews of Nriagu, Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity.
Chisolm, J. Julian, Jr, in Bulletin of the History of Medicine 59 (1985):
258-9.
Houston, George W., in Classical Journal (1989-90), 73-5, and 80.

Scarborough, John, in The Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied
Sciences 39 (1984): 469-75.

Phillips, Charles Robert III. "Old Wine in Old Lead Bottles: Nriagu on the
Fall of Rome," CW 78 (1984), 29-33.


Other Aspects of Ancient Heavy Metal Pollution
Hong, Sungmin, "Greenland ice evidence of hemispheric lead pollution two
millenia ago by Greek and Roman civilizations," Science 265 (23 Sept 94):
1841-1843.
Nriagu, Jerome O., "Global metal pollution," Environment, 32 (Sept 90):
6-11+?.

Nriagu, Jerome O., "A history of global metal pollution," Science 272 (12
Apr 96): 223-224.

"From silver, toxic lining in ancient atmosphere," New York Times (Late NY
edition) 27 Sept 94, C6.





"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:gpYLe.89222$G8.46395@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> As your article said:
> Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes would not have
> caused
> contamination for two reasons: (1) because the Roman water contained high
> concentrations of calcium which formed deposits inside the pipes,
> insulating
> the lead and (2) because lead will never greatly affect running water.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:NlYLe.89220$G8.13859@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> Just the entrance pipes.
>>
>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> news:5cf08$42ffff43$42a1cc8c$6643@FUSE.NET...
>> > Are all the pipes lead or just the entrance pipes?
>> >
>> > http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > news:poKLe.88801$G8.352@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> > > I'm not sure if you are serious or not :-)
>> > > I have lead pipes in my house - they have been there for 70 years. It
>> > > isn't
>> > > a problem now as the minerals in the water have leached out to form
>> > > an
>> > > internal coating just as your kettle furs up over time in 'hard
>> > > water'
>> > > areas. My grandfather and grandmother lived in that house since
>> > > 1934 -
>> he
>> > > died aged 96, and she is still going strong at 91.
>> > >
>> > > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >
>> > > "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:6f4bd$42ff63fe$42a1cc8c$25528@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> What about the recent theory that the affluent slowly poisoned
>> themselves
>> > >> via the lead pipes they used for all their plumbing?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > >> news:lKHLe.88730$G8.30203@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > >> > "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of
>> > >> > immoderate
>> > >> > greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of
>> the
>> > >> > destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > time
>> > >> > or
>> > >> > accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous
>> > >> > fabric
>> > >> > yielded
>> > >> > to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple
>> and
>> > >> > obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was
> destroyed
>> we
>> > >> > should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
>> [Gibbon,
>> > >> > Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J.
>> > >> > B.
>> > >> > Bury
>> > >> > (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]
>> > >> >
>> > >> > In other words, the wolf at the top of the hill is not as keen as
> the
>> > > wolf
>> > >> > at the bottom. Do you think America will be the top dog in another
>> 500
>> > >> > years
>> > >> > ? Every dog/wolf has their day !
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >> >
>> > >> > "Ruel Smith" <NoWay@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
>> > >> > news:7379e$42ff4460$453deea8$10145@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> >> >>From what I history I have read, the decline of many a
>> civilization
>> > > is
>> > >> >> > really caused by the destruction of the middle class. That
>> > >> >> > was
>> > >> >> > certainly true in the decline of the Roman Empire. They
>> > >> >> > kicked
> a
>> > >> >> > whole lot of butt in the known world and it eventually drained
>> their
>> > >> >> > treasury dry trying to defend their over stressed borders..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> They also developed a welfare system, started having orgies, got
> fat
>> > > and
>> > >> >> lazy... By the time Rome fell, it wasn't even close to being the
>> > >> > powerhouse
>> > >> >> that it was under Julius Caesar.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Sorry, I did not read the website in detail. There was show on educational
TV years ago that I recalled watching. I got that site from google
searching the terms "rome lead toxicity"

here is a list of direct references


Lead and the Fall of Rome: A Bibliography
Originally posted March 23, 1998.
Since the nineteenth century, there have been sporadic suggestions that the
large-scale use of lead in antiquity contributed to the fall of Rome through
heavy-metal poisoning.

A request to the always-generous members of LT-ANTIQ for bibliography on
this question produced the following results. Enjoy!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online Bibliographies of Late Antiquity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Books and Articles
Eisinger, J., "Lead and wine: Eberhard Gockel and the 'colica Pictonum' ",
Medical History, 26 (1982): 278-302.
Eisinger, Josef, "Sweet poison. Episodic outbreaks of colic, or 'wine
disease,' plagued Europe for many centuries, even after an obscure German
physician traced the cause to lead," Natural History 105 (July 96): 48-53.

Gilfillan, S.C. "Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome," Journal of
Occupational Medicine, 1 (1965): 53-60.

Gilfillan, S. Colum. Rome's Ruin by Lead Poison. Long Beach, CA, 1990.

Hodge, T. A. "Vitruvius, lead pipes, and lead poisoning," American Journal
of Archaeology 85 (1981): 486-491.

Karlen, Arno Napoleon's Glands and Other Ventures in Biohistory. Toronto,
1984.

Needleman, Lionel and Diane. "Lead poisoning and the decline of the Roman
aristocracy," Classical Views 4,1 (1985): 63-94.

Nriagu, J.O. Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity. New York, 1983.

Nriagu, Jerome O. "Saturnine Gout among Roman Aristocrats: Did Lead
Poisoning Contribute to the Fall of the Empire?", New England Journal of
Medicine, 308.11 (March 17, 1983): 660-3.

Scarborough, John. "The myth of lead poisoning among the Romans: a review
essay," Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, 39,4 (1984):
469-475.

Skovenborg, Erik. "Lead in wine through the ages," Journal of Wine Research
6, 1 (1995).

Steinbock, R. Ted. "Lead Ingestion in Ancient Times," Paleopathology
Newsletter , no. 27 (Sept. 1979): 9-11.

Waldron, H.A. "Lead Poisoning in the Ancient World," Medical History, 17
(1973): 391-399.


2. Reviews of Nriagu, Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity.
Chisolm, J. Julian, Jr, in Bulletin of the History of Medicine 59 (1985):
258-9.
Houston, George W., in Classical Journal (1989-90), 73-5, and 80.

Scarborough, John, in The Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied
Sciences 39 (1984): 469-75.

Phillips, Charles Robert III. "Old Wine in Old Lead Bottles: Nriagu on the
Fall of Rome," CW 78 (1984), 29-33.


Other Aspects of Ancient Heavy Metal Pollution
Hong, Sungmin, "Greenland ice evidence of hemispheric lead pollution two
millenia ago by Greek and Roman civilizations," Science 265 (23 Sept 94):
1841-1843.
Nriagu, Jerome O., "Global metal pollution," Environment, 32 (Sept 90):
6-11+?.

Nriagu, Jerome O., "A history of global metal pollution," Science 272 (12
Apr 96): 223-224.

"From silver, toxic lining in ancient atmosphere," New York Times (Late NY
edition) 27 Sept 94, C6.





"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:gpYLe.89222$G8.46395@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> As your article said:
> Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes would not have
> caused
> contamination for two reasons: (1) because the Roman water contained high
> concentrations of calcium which formed deposits inside the pipes,
> insulating
> the lead and (2) because lead will never greatly affect running water.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:NlYLe.89220$G8.13859@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> Just the entrance pipes.
>>
>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> news:5cf08$42ffff43$42a1cc8c$6643@FUSE.NET...
>> > Are all the pipes lead or just the entrance pipes?
>> >
>> > http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > news:poKLe.88801$G8.352@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> > > I'm not sure if you are serious or not :-)
>> > > I have lead pipes in my house - they have been there for 70 years. It
>> > > isn't
>> > > a problem now as the minerals in the water have leached out to form
>> > > an
>> > > internal coating just as your kettle furs up over time in 'hard
>> > > water'
>> > > areas. My grandfather and grandmother lived in that house since
>> > > 1934 -
>> he
>> > > died aged 96, and she is still going strong at 91.
>> > >
>> > > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >
>> > > "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:6f4bd$42ff63fe$42a1cc8c$25528@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> What about the recent theory that the affluent slowly poisoned
>> themselves
>> > >> via the lead pipes they used for all their plumbing?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > >> news:lKHLe.88730$G8.30203@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > >> > "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of
>> > >> > immoderate
>> > >> > greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of
>> the
>> > >> > destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > time
>> > >> > or
>> > >> > accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous
>> > >> > fabric
>> > >> > yielded
>> > >> > to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple
>> and
>> > >> > obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was
> destroyed
>> we
>> > >> > should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
>> [Gibbon,
>> > >> > Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J.
>> > >> > B.
>> > >> > Bury
>> > >> > (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]
>> > >> >
>> > >> > In other words, the wolf at the top of the hill is not as keen as
> the
>> > > wolf
>> > >> > at the bottom. Do you think America will be the top dog in another
>> 500
>> > >> > years
>> > >> > ? Every dog/wolf has their day !
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >> >
>> > >> > "Ruel Smith" <NoWay@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
>> > >> > news:7379e$42ff4460$453deea8$10145@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> >> >>From what I history I have read, the decline of many a
>> civilization
>> > > is
>> > >> >> > really caused by the destruction of the middle class. That
>> > >> >> > was
>> > >> >> > certainly true in the decline of the Roman Empire. They
>> > >> >> > kicked
> a
>> > >> >> > whole lot of butt in the known world and it eventually drained
>> their
>> > >> >> > treasury dry trying to defend their over stressed borders..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> They also developed a welfare system, started having orgies, got
> fat
>> > > and
>> > >> >> lazy... By the time Rome fell, it wasn't even close to being the
>> > >> > powerhouse
>> > >> >> that it was under Julius Caesar.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Sorry, I did not read the website in detail. There was show on educational
TV years ago that I recalled watching. I got that site from google
searching the terms "rome lead toxicity"

here is a list of direct references


Lead and the Fall of Rome: A Bibliography
Originally posted March 23, 1998.
Since the nineteenth century, there have been sporadic suggestions that the
large-scale use of lead in antiquity contributed to the fall of Rome through
heavy-metal poisoning.

A request to the always-generous members of LT-ANTIQ for bibliography on
this question produced the following results. Enjoy!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online Bibliographies of Late Antiquity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Books and Articles
Eisinger, J., "Lead and wine: Eberhard Gockel and the 'colica Pictonum' ",
Medical History, 26 (1982): 278-302.
Eisinger, Josef, "Sweet poison. Episodic outbreaks of colic, or 'wine
disease,' plagued Europe for many centuries, even after an obscure German
physician traced the cause to lead," Natural History 105 (July 96): 48-53.

Gilfillan, S.C. "Lead Poisoning and the Fall of Rome," Journal of
Occupational Medicine, 1 (1965): 53-60.

Gilfillan, S. Colum. Rome's Ruin by Lead Poison. Long Beach, CA, 1990.

Hodge, T. A. "Vitruvius, lead pipes, and lead poisoning," American Journal
of Archaeology 85 (1981): 486-491.

Karlen, Arno Napoleon's Glands and Other Ventures in Biohistory. Toronto,
1984.

Needleman, Lionel and Diane. "Lead poisoning and the decline of the Roman
aristocracy," Classical Views 4,1 (1985): 63-94.

Nriagu, J.O. Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity. New York, 1983.

Nriagu, Jerome O. "Saturnine Gout among Roman Aristocrats: Did Lead
Poisoning Contribute to the Fall of the Empire?", New England Journal of
Medicine, 308.11 (March 17, 1983): 660-3.

Scarborough, John. "The myth of lead poisoning among the Romans: a review
essay," Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, 39,4 (1984):
469-475.

Skovenborg, Erik. "Lead in wine through the ages," Journal of Wine Research
6, 1 (1995).

Steinbock, R. Ted. "Lead Ingestion in Ancient Times," Paleopathology
Newsletter , no. 27 (Sept. 1979): 9-11.

Waldron, H.A. "Lead Poisoning in the Ancient World," Medical History, 17
(1973): 391-399.


2. Reviews of Nriagu, Lead and Lead Poisoning in Antiquity.
Chisolm, J. Julian, Jr, in Bulletin of the History of Medicine 59 (1985):
258-9.
Houston, George W., in Classical Journal (1989-90), 73-5, and 80.

Scarborough, John, in The Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied
Sciences 39 (1984): 469-75.

Phillips, Charles Robert III. "Old Wine in Old Lead Bottles: Nriagu on the
Fall of Rome," CW 78 (1984), 29-33.


Other Aspects of Ancient Heavy Metal Pollution
Hong, Sungmin, "Greenland ice evidence of hemispheric lead pollution two
millenia ago by Greek and Roman civilizations," Science 265 (23 Sept 94):
1841-1843.
Nriagu, Jerome O., "Global metal pollution," Environment, 32 (Sept 90):
6-11+?.

Nriagu, Jerome O., "A history of global metal pollution," Science 272 (12
Apr 96): 223-224.

"From silver, toxic lining in ancient atmosphere," New York Times (Late NY
edition) 27 Sept 94, C6.





"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:gpYLe.89222$G8.46395@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> As your article said:
> Hodge (1981) has correctly pointed out that lead pipes would not have
> caused
> contamination for two reasons: (1) because the Roman water contained high
> concentrations of calcium which formed deposits inside the pipes,
> insulating
> the lead and (2) because lead will never greatly affect running water.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:NlYLe.89220$G8.13859@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> Just the entrance pipes.
>>
>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> news:5cf08$42ffff43$42a1cc8c$6643@FUSE.NET...
>> > Are all the pipes lead or just the entrance pipes?
>> >
>> > http://www.waterhistory.org/histories/rome/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > news:poKLe.88801$G8.352@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> > > I'm not sure if you are serious or not :-)
>> > > I have lead pipes in my house - they have been there for 70 years. It
>> > > isn't
>> > > a problem now as the minerals in the water have leached out to form
>> > > an
>> > > internal coating just as your kettle furs up over time in 'hard
>> > > water'
>> > > areas. My grandfather and grandmother lived in that house since
>> > > 1934 -
>> he
>> > > died aged 96, and she is still going strong at 91.
>> > >
>> > > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >
>> > > "Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:6f4bd$42ff63fe$42a1cc8c$25528@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> What about the recent theory that the affluent slowly poisoned
>> themselves
>> > >> via the lead pipes they used for all their plumbing?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> > >> news:lKHLe.88730$G8.30203@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > >> > "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of
>> > >> > immoderate
>> > >> > greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of
>> the
>> > >> > destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > time
>> > >> > or
>> > >> > accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous
>> > >> > fabric
>> > >> > yielded
>> > >> > to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple
>> and
>> > >> > obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was
> destroyed
>> we
>> > >> > should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."
>> [Gibbon,
>> > >> > Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 2nd ed., vol. 4, ed. by J.
>> > >> > B.
>> > >> > Bury
>> > >> > (London, 1909), pp. 173-174.]
>> > >> >
>> > >> > In other words, the wolf at the top of the hill is not as keen as
> the
>> > > wolf
>> > >> > at the bottom. Do you think America will be the top dog in another
>> 500
>> > >> > years
>> > >> > ? Every dog/wolf has their day !
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > >> >
>> > >> > "Ruel Smith" <NoWay@NoWhere.com> wrote in message
>> > >> > news:7379e$42ff4460$453deea8$10145@FUSE.NET...
>> > >> >> >>From what I history I have read, the decline of many a
>> civilization
>> > > is
>> > >> >> > really caused by the destruction of the middle class. That
>> > >> >> > was
>> > >> >> > certainly true in the decline of the Roman Empire. They
>> > >> >> > kicked
> a
>> > >> >> > whole lot of butt in the known world and it eventually drained
>> their
>> > >> >> > treasury dry trying to defend their over stressed borders..
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> They also developed a welfare system, started having orgies, got
> fat
>> > > and
>> > >> >> lazy... By the time Rome fell, it wasn't even close to being the
>> > >> > powerhouse
>> > >> >> that it was under Julius Caesar.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Brian,

What's the deal with this ban on idling, is this going to become wide------?
What are you going to do in northern Ontario when it is -40 in the winter?




"Cherokee-Ltd" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:8_6dnRx0ydmHEJ3eRVn-vQ@rogers.com...
>
> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YXFLe.183$7R.5422@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>I want names dude..? you made a lame ass claim that anyone who works in
>>aviation knows is greatly false, let alone people who know nothing about
>>planes.. so again which airlines are using jet fuel in their ramp
>>vehicles?
>>
>> Snow...
>
> As far as I know, they used coloured (dyed) diesel fuel at 0% road tax.
> Also known as farm fuel. The same fuel that trucking companies use for
> their shunt trucks, refer units and gen-sets.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Brian,

What's the deal with this ban on idling, is this going to become wide------?
What are you going to do in northern Ontario when it is -40 in the winter?




"Cherokee-Ltd" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:8_6dnRx0ydmHEJ3eRVn-vQ@rogers.com...
>
> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YXFLe.183$7R.5422@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>I want names dude..? you made a lame ass claim that anyone who works in
>>aviation knows is greatly false, let alone people who know nothing about
>>planes.. so again which airlines are using jet fuel in their ramp
>>vehicles?
>>
>> Snow...
>
> As far as I know, they used coloured (dyed) diesel fuel at 0% road tax.
> Also known as farm fuel. The same fuel that trucking companies use for
> their shunt trucks, refer units and gen-sets.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Brian,

What's the deal with this ban on idling, is this going to become wide------?
What are you going to do in northern Ontario when it is -40 in the winter?




"Cherokee-Ltd" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:8_6dnRx0ydmHEJ3eRVn-vQ@rogers.com...
>
> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YXFLe.183$7R.5422@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>I want names dude..? you made a lame ass claim that anyone who works in
>>aviation knows is greatly false, let alone people who know nothing about
>>planes.. so again which airlines are using jet fuel in their ramp
>>vehicles?
>>
>> Snow...
>
> As far as I know, they used coloured (dyed) diesel fuel at 0% road tax.
> Also known as farm fuel. The same fuel that trucking companies use for
> their shunt trucks, refer units and gen-sets.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

Brian,

What's the deal with this ban on idling, is this going to become wide------?
What are you going to do in northern Ontario when it is -40 in the winter?




"Cherokee-Ltd" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:8_6dnRx0ydmHEJ3eRVn-vQ@rogers.com...
>
> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YXFLe.183$7R.5422@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>I want names dude..? you made a lame ass claim that anyone who works in
>>aviation knows is greatly false, let alone people who know nothing about
>>planes.. so again which airlines are using jet fuel in their ramp
>>vehicles?
>>
>> Snow...
>
> As far as I know, they used coloured (dyed) diesel fuel at 0% road tax.
> Also known as farm fuel. The same fuel that trucking companies use for
> their shunt trucks, refer units and gen-sets.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>

Re: Oil prices got you down?
 

"Billy Ray" <Billy_Ray@SPAMfuse.net> wrote in message
news:562c5$4300c408$42a1cc8c$21091@FUSE.NET...
> Brian,
>
> What's the deal with this ban on idling, is this going to become
> wide------? What are you going to do in northern Ontario when it is -40 in
> the winter?
>

This "idling ban" thing is a complete farce.

Fortunately in Ontario, trucks need only to comply with emissions testing
and can idle. As you point out, temperatures can dip to -40 C/F and reach as
high as 35C (100F)... and let me tell you, it can be a lot hotter than that
sitting a truck stop with the heat from the asphalt, radiant heat from other
vehicles and no cross breeze when parked between other trucks. Our company
has adopted a common sense approach to idling. Our trucks are equipped with
satellites that monitor idling among other things. The truck enters
violation after ten minutes in cold weather and three minutes in warm
weather. The truck will shut off after ten minutes in either case. There are
ways to 'trick' the system and keep it idling but it's not necessary for us.
The company used to be very rigid about idling and drivers could lose a
percentage of their bonus but the cost of "investigating" each and every
circumstance outweighs the savings. They don't want drivers on the dock for
4 hours unloading while the truck idles but they do understand sitting in
queue in unbearable heat or cold.

And now the farce... every state has their own interpretation on idling.
http://fleetowner.com/news/fleet_sta...icipal_idling/

The solution? APU's - Auxiliary Power Units
APU's are small diesel generators that provide 120V power supply for power
tools, appliances etc. 60A to recharge your trucks batteries. Engine block
heater for those extreme climates and a cab controlled HVAC system. They are
stand alone systems that mount on the side of the frame and can conceivably
pay for themselves through fuel savings alone inside of two years.

Pay for themselves in two years?
Yep, it's a good thing too because environmental do-gooders want to ban them
as well starting 2007.
http://www.todaystrucking.com/displa...le.cfm?ID=3592

No doubt, there will soon be a hand picked elite force named the
"Three-Minutemen" patrolling a truck stop near you.

-Brian