Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

With a vehicle as short as a Jeep, locking the rear wheels will cause it
to go snaky like a bike does, but you can't lean out of it. A bike also
has the gyroscope effect big time with at least the front wheel still.

A longer vehicle will also act the same, but it is a bit more forgiving
so you can maybe hold it straight with the steering wheel.

Once it breaks free, not many people can hold the vehicle straight.

Locked up the rear tires slide way faster than the free turning front
ones.

We used to do this on purpose when racing on ice roads or frozen lakes
to help get around corners faster.

In part time 4x4 when you lock up the brakes, all 4 wheels lock for the
reasons you think.

This just up and slides you sideways into the ditch or straight off the
corner.

This action is a fast 'low side finder' like a locker on ice and is one
reason I think you see so many SUV's calmly sitting sideways in the
ditches during snow storms.

I always highly recommend folks new to 4x4 hit an empty parking lot and
try it out come first snow. The braking action in 4x4 is like nothing
else you have ever driven.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Tim Hayes wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
> > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing
> > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on
> > a frozen lake.
>
> What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on
> slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun
> around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does
> get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to
> immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different?
>
> And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in
> part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking
> the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place?
> Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed?

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?

You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?

You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?

You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

And what did they design the proportinging valve to do?
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

And what did they design the proportinging valve to do?
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

And what did they design the proportinging valve to do?
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:


>
> I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> brakes were properly adjusted.
>

Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.

Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
mod or something?

I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:


>
> I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> brakes were properly adjusted.
>

Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.

Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
mod or something?

I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:


>
> I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> brakes were properly adjusted.
>

Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.

Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
mod or something?

I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Debate skills 101
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

JimG wrote:
>
> I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA
>
> (this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
> ratios... terminology differences)
>
> --
> JimG
> 80' CJ-7 258 CID
> 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
> D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
> 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
> Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
> Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Debate skills 101
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

JimG wrote:
>
> I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA
>
> (this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
> ratios... terminology differences)
>
> --
> JimG
> 80' CJ-7 258 CID
> 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
> D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
> 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
> Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
> Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Debate skills 101
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

JimG wrote:
>
> I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA
>
> (this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
> ratios... terminology differences)
>
> --
> JimG
> 80' CJ-7 258 CID
> 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
> D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
> 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
> Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
> Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That's interesting to know. Next time we get a little snow, I'm going
to have someone watch me in an empty parking lot, and test this out. I
had always thought I was locking up all four wheels when I hit the
brakes pretty good in slippery conditions.


....One of these days I'll know enough to be knowledgeable and not just
enough to be dangerous ;-) ...

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFC393D.82EBADAD@sympatico.ca>...
> You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...
>
> And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
> brakes or anti skid brakes.
>
> They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
> prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
> line and not slide sideways or do 360's.
>
> All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
> pickups and wagons that came with it.
>
> I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
> system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
> being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
> pedal.
>
> If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
> rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
> lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
> should be changed ASAP.
>
> Mike
>
> Bob wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> > the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> > one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> > four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> > seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> > somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> > a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> > when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> > you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> > in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> > equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> > up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> > flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
> >
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> >
> > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> > >
> > > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > > blink.
> > >
> > > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> > >
> > > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> > >
> > > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That's interesting to know. Next time we get a little snow, I'm going
to have someone watch me in an empty parking lot, and test this out. I
had always thought I was locking up all four wheels when I hit the
brakes pretty good in slippery conditions.


....One of these days I'll know enough to be knowledgeable and not just
enough to be dangerous ;-) ...

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFC393D.82EBADAD@sympatico.ca>...
> You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...
>
> And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
> brakes or anti skid brakes.
>
> They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
> prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
> line and not slide sideways or do 360's.
>
> All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
> pickups and wagons that came with it.
>
> I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
> system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
> being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
> pedal.
>
> If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
> rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
> lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
> should be changed ASAP.
>
> Mike
>
> Bob wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> > the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> > one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> > four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> > seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> > somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> > a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> > when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> > you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> > in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> > equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> > up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> > flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
> >
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> >
> > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> > >
> > > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > > blink.
> > >
> > > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> > >
> > > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> > >
> > > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That's interesting to know. Next time we get a little snow, I'm going
to have someone watch me in an empty parking lot, and test this out. I
had always thought I was locking up all four wheels when I hit the
brakes pretty good in slippery conditions.


....One of these days I'll know enough to be knowledgeable and not just
enough to be dangerous ;-) ...

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFC393D.82EBADAD@sympatico.ca>...
> You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...
>
> And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
> brakes or anti skid brakes.
>
> They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
> prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
> line and not slide sideways or do 360's.
>
> All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
> pickups and wagons that came with it.
>
> I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
> system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
> being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
> pedal.
>
> If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
> rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
> lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
> should be changed ASAP.
>
> Mike
>
> Bob wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> > the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> > one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> > four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> > seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> > somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> > a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> > when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> > you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> > in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> > equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> > up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> > flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
> >
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> >
> > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> > >
> > > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > > blink.
> > >
> > > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> > >
> > > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> > >
> > > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Agreed.

I guess I will call it a combination valve like it is with a
proportioning part in it.

It is a dynamic proportioning valve too though.

And it's only design or purpose is to provide rear anti lock brakes,
'Not' 'ABS' as folks today think of it, but 'to prevent rear brake
lockup'....

Damn I wish I could find those old advertisements, then I would call it
exactly like it was sold as.

Mike

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Agreed.

I guess I will call it a combination valve like it is with a
proportioning part in it.

It is a dynamic proportioning valve too though.

And it's only design or purpose is to provide rear anti lock brakes,
'Not' 'ABS' as folks today think of it, but 'to prevent rear brake
lockup'....

Damn I wish I could find those old advertisements, then I would call it
exactly like it was sold as.

Mike

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Agreed.

I guess I will call it a combination valve like it is with a
proportioning part in it.

It is a dynamic proportioning valve too though.

And it's only design or purpose is to provide rear anti lock brakes,
'Not' 'ABS' as folks today think of it, but 'to prevent rear brake
lockup'....

Damn I wish I could find those old advertisements, then I would call it
exactly like it was sold as.

Mike

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 08 Jan 2004 06:13 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> You could call it a proportioning valve. 8^)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Jeeps got the combination valve in 74 according to one of my manuals to
prevent rear wheel lockup under hard braking.

Mike

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Jeeps got the combination valve in 74 according to one of my manuals to
prevent rear wheel lockup under hard braking.

Mike

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Jeeps got the combination valve in 74 according to one of my manuals to
prevent rear wheel lockup under hard braking.

Mike

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.