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Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
CRWLR wrote:
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following: > > > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option, > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!) > > > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an > > ABS system, which it is not. > > > > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen. Wow, I am amazed. There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve. That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking. That 'is' the design principle of the thing. What doe the acronym ABS mean? I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels. What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
CRWLR wrote:
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following: > > > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option, > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!) > > > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an > > ABS system, which it is not. > > > > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen. Wow, I am amazed. There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve. That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking. That 'is' the design principle of the thing. What doe the acronym ABS mean? I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels. What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Depends upon if the person receiving the answer is dyslexic, in
which case s/he has just got the question. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ CRWLR wrote: > > That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-) > > Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the > question, he was LOOKING for an answer. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Depends upon if the person receiving the answer is dyslexic, in
which case s/he has just got the question. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ CRWLR wrote: > > That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-) > > Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the > question, he was LOOKING for an answer. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Depends upon if the person receiving the answer is dyslexic, in
which case s/he has just got the question. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ CRWLR wrote: > > That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-) > > Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the > question, he was LOOKING for an answer. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> What doe the acronym ABS mean? Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing flakes say it means. > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? Yes. > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved rough time. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps RWALPV. Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such down in BSE land. -- Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> What doe the acronym ABS mean? Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing flakes say it means. > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? Yes. > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved rough time. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps RWALPV. Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such down in BSE land. -- Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> What doe the acronym ABS mean? Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing flakes say it means. > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? Yes. > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved rough time. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps RWALPV. Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such down in BSE land. -- Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
LOL!
Good points. Mike "L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote: > > Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed: > > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing > flakes say it means. > > > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > > Yes. > > > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > > the rear wheels. > > Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure > you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved > rough time. > > > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > > You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if > you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps > RWALPV. > > Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want > to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense > for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system > or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such > down in BSE land. > > -- > Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
LOL!
Good points. Mike "L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote: > > Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed: > > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing > flakes say it means. > > > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > > Yes. > > > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > > the rear wheels. > > Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure > you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved > rough time. > > > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > > You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if > you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps > RWALPV. > > Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want > to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense > for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system > or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such > down in BSE land. > > -- > Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
LOL!
Good points. Mike "L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote: > > Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed: > > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing > flakes say it means. > > > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > > Yes. > > > > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > > the rear wheels. > > Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure > you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved > rough time. > > > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > > You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if > you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps > RWALPV. > > Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want > to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense > for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system > or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such > down in BSE land. > > -- > Fan of the dumbest team in America. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca... > CRWLR wrote: > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following: > > > > > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear > > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option, > > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of > > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as > > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!) > > > > > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an > > > ABS system, which it is not. > > > > > > > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is > > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive > > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen. > > Wow, I am amazed. > > There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve. > > That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking. > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes. Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the brakes were properly adjusted. > That 'is' the design principle of the thing. > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System. But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system. > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure the brakes get is too small. Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well, it is not an intent of the valve. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca... > CRWLR wrote: > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following: > > > > > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear > > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option, > > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of > > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as > > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!) > > > > > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an > > > ABS system, which it is not. > > > > > > > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is > > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive > > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen. > > Wow, I am amazed. > > There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve. > > That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking. > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes. Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the brakes were properly adjusted. > That 'is' the design principle of the thing. > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System. But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system. > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure the brakes get is too small. Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well, it is not an intent of the valve. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca... > CRWLR wrote: > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following: > > > > > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear > > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option, > > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of > > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as > > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!) > > > > > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an > > > ABS system, which it is not. > > > > > > > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is > > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive > > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen. > > Wow, I am amazed. > > There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve. > > That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking. > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes. Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the brakes were properly adjusted. > That 'is' the design principle of the thing. > > What doe the acronym ABS mean? > > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken? > No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System. But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system. > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking > the rear wheels. > > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong? > Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure the brakes get is too small. Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well, it is not an intent of the valve. |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps? > > Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the > butt. Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry, refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control unit, and a modulating unit. Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have been pissed. ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps? > > Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the > butt. Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry, refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control unit, and a modulating unit. Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have been pissed. ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps? > > Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the > butt. Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry, refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control unit, and a modulating unit. Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have been pissed. ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > etc. > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > Simple eh? > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > to. You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall purpose. > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > under hard braking. I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > to you before and have tried to explain it. I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something very different than what they are expecting. > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > posted both here and in the last thread on this. If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have whether or not they are equipped with ABS: [begin quoted material] ABS Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. [end quoted material] This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ library.html ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > etc. > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > Simple eh? > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > to. You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall purpose. > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > under hard braking. I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > to you before and have tried to explain it. I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something very different than what they are expecting. > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > posted both here and in the last thread on this. If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have whether or not they are equipped with ABS: [begin quoted material] ABS Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. [end quoted material] This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ library.html ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > etc. > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > Simple eh? > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > to. You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall purpose. > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > under hard braking. I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > to you before and have tried to explain it. I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something very different than what they are expecting. > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > posted both here and in the last thread on this. If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have whether or not they are equipped with ABS: [begin quoted material] ABS Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. [end quoted material] This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ library.html ---------------------------------------------------- Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Hi Will:
My 200 lbs WILL NOT lock the rear wheels of my '02 TJ on dry pavement. They will lock on snow/ice, but only after mashing my brake pedal as hard as I can. My rear brakes are adjusted and working properly. Tom "Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-uMPC7TFWxkZU@anon.none.net... > When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination, > they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are > begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a > proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a > portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be > REALLY determined to do it. > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com> > wrote: > > > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a > > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will > > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal. > > > > Tom > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > > > > > Jeeps especially > > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's. > > > > > > Not. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ > > > > > > > -- > Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net> |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Hi Will:
My 200 lbs WILL NOT lock the rear wheels of my '02 TJ on dry pavement. They will lock on snow/ice, but only after mashing my brake pedal as hard as I can. My rear brakes are adjusted and working properly. Tom "Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-uMPC7TFWxkZU@anon.none.net... > When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination, > they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are > begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a > proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a > portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be > REALLY determined to do it. > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com> > wrote: > > > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a > > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will > > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal. > > > > Tom > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > > > > > Jeeps especially > > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's. > > > > > > Not. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ > > > > > > > -- > Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net> |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Hi Will:
My 200 lbs WILL NOT lock the rear wheels of my '02 TJ on dry pavement. They will lock on snow/ice, but only after mashing my brake pedal as hard as I can. My rear brakes are adjusted and working properly. Tom "Will Honea" <whonea@codenet.net> wrote in message news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-uMPC7TFWxkZU@anon.none.net... > When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination, > they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are > begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a > proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a > portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be > REALLY determined to do it. > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com> > wrote: > > > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a > > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will > > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal. > > > > Tom > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message > > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com... > > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > > > > > Jeeps especially > > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's. > > > > > > Not. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ > > > > > > > -- > Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net> |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Mike Romain wrote:
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > a frozen lake. What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Mike Romain wrote:
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > a frozen lake. What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Mike Romain wrote:
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > a frozen lake. What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Have a transmission lockup, and you'll swap ends right now, have an
engine seize and you'll be half away around before you can disengage the clutch. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Tim Hayes wrote: > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Have a transmission lockup, and you'll swap ends right now, have an
engine seize and you'll be half away around before you can disengage the clutch. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Tim Hayes wrote: > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Have a transmission lockup, and you'll swap ends right now, have an
engine seize and you'll be half away around before you can disengage the clutch. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ Tim Hayes wrote: > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Probably the same reason big rigs jack-knife when the trailer wheels
lock-up... sliding wheels, having lost their traction, travel faster than the wheels that are braking with traction. And around she goes! -- JimG 80' CJ-7 258 CID 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Probably the same reason big rigs jack-knife when the trailer wheels
lock-up... sliding wheels, having lost their traction, travel faster than the wheels that are braking with traction. And around she goes! -- JimG 80' CJ-7 258 CID 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Probably the same reason big rigs jack-knife when the trailer wheels
lock-up... sliding wheels, having lost their traction, travel faster than the wheels that are braking with traction. And around she goes! -- JimG 80' CJ-7 258 CID 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
A bike will still do this, but I suspect that there's a couple of reasons
why it may be less common with bike: 1) The gyroscopic effect of the rotating mass of the wheels is more significant. 2) The rider, being up to half as massive as the bike, can compensate more effectively by leaning to either side and essentially manipulating the entire chassis. /Peter "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
A bike will still do this, but I suspect that there's a couple of reasons
why it may be less common with bike: 1) The gyroscopic effect of the rotating mass of the wheels is more significant. 2) The rider, being up to half as massive as the bike, can compensate more effectively by leaning to either side and essentially manipulating the entire chassis. /Peter "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
A bike will still do this, but I suspect that there's a couple of reasons
why it may be less common with bike: 1) The gyroscopic effect of the rotating mass of the wheels is more significant. 2) The rider, being up to half as massive as the bike, can compensate more effectively by leaning to either side and essentially manipulating the entire chassis. /Peter "Tim Hayes" <thayes@remove-me.rutgers.edu> wrote in message news:3ffca2e9$1@rutgers.edu... > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? > > |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Ok, what 'should' I call it?
As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came out.... I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes. That is sure what my Dad figured he bought.... Mike Del Rawlins wrote: > > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > > etc. > > > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > > > Simple eh? > > > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > > to. > > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall > purpose. > > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > > under hard braking. > > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > > to you before and have tried to explain it. > > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something > very different than what they are expecting. > > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > > posted both here and in the last thread on this. > > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have > whether or not they are equipped with ABS: > > [begin quoted material] > ABS > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. > [end quoted material] > > This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ > library.html > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Ok, what 'should' I call it?
As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came out.... I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes. That is sure what my Dad figured he bought.... Mike Del Rawlins wrote: > > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > > etc. > > > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > > > Simple eh? > > > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > > to. > > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall > purpose. > > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > > under hard braking. > > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > > to you before and have tried to explain it. > > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something > very different than what they are expecting. > > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > > posted both here and in the last thread on this. > > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have > whether or not they are equipped with ABS: > > [begin quoted material] > ABS > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. > [end quoted material] > > This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ > library.html > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
Ok, what 'should' I call it?
As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came out.... I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes. That is sure what my Dad figured he bought.... Mike Del Rawlins wrote: > > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following: > > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, > > etc. > > > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up." > > > > Simple eh? > > > > And they even managed to do it before computers. > > > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring > > to. > > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall > purpose. > > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock > > under hard braking. > > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue. > > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes > > to you before and have tried to explain it. > > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is), > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something > very different than what they are expecting. > > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have > > posted both here and in the last thread on this. > > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have > whether or not they are equipped with ABS: > > [begin quoted material] > ABS > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces. > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces. > [end quoted material] > > This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/ > library.html > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email. > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/ |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
With a vehicle as short as a Jeep, locking the rear wheels will cause it
to go snaky like a bike does, but you can't lean out of it. A bike also has the gyroscope effect big time with at least the front wheel still. A longer vehicle will also act the same, but it is a bit more forgiving so you can maybe hold it straight with the steering wheel. Once it breaks free, not many people can hold the vehicle straight. Locked up the rear tires slide way faster than the free turning front ones. We used to do this on purpose when racing on ice roads or frozen lakes to help get around corners faster. In part time 4x4 when you lock up the brakes, all 4 wheels lock for the reasons you think. This just up and slides you sideways into the ditch or straight off the corner. This action is a fast 'low side finder' like a locker on ice and is one reason I think you see so many SUV's calmly sitting sideways in the ditches during snow storms. I always highly recommend folks new to 4x4 hit an empty parking lot and try it out come first snow. The braking action in 4x4 is like nothing else you have ever driven. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Tim Hayes wrote: > > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
With a vehicle as short as a Jeep, locking the rear wheels will cause it
to go snaky like a bike does, but you can't lean out of it. A bike also has the gyroscope effect big time with at least the front wheel still. A longer vehicle will also act the same, but it is a bit more forgiving so you can maybe hold it straight with the steering wheel. Once it breaks free, not many people can hold the vehicle straight. Locked up the rear tires slide way faster than the free turning front ones. We used to do this on purpose when racing on ice roads or frozen lakes to help get around corners faster. In part time 4x4 when you lock up the brakes, all 4 wheels lock for the reasons you think. This just up and slides you sideways into the ditch or straight off the corner. This action is a fast 'low side finder' like a locker on ice and is one reason I think you see so many SUV's calmly sitting sideways in the ditches during snow storms. I always highly recommend folks new to 4x4 hit an empty parking lot and try it out come first snow. The braking action in 4x4 is like nothing else you have ever driven. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Tim Hayes wrote: > > Mike Romain wrote: > > > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing > > the e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on > > a frozen lake. > > What causes this? Please excuse my ignorance, but I've done this on > slick roads at speed on my motorcycle several times and never been spun > around. (My bike doesn't have ABS or linked f/r brakes.) The rear does > get 'sloppy' and move all over the place, but it doesn't cause a bike to > immediatly swap ends. Why is a Jeep so different? > > And as a second question (not necessarily to you Mike)- if you are in > part-time 4wd how is it even possible to lock the rear without locking > the front and ever get into a situation like that in the first place? > Don't the front and back have to turn at the same speed? |
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