Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.

That is what that valve is specifically for.

Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
frozen lake.

We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Will Honea wrote:
>
> When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination,
> they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are
> begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a
> proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a
> portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be
> REALLY determined to do it.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a
> > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will
> > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > >
> > > > Jeeps especially
> > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > Not.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.

That is what that valve is specifically for.

Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
frozen lake.

We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Will Honea wrote:
>
> When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination,
> they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are
> begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a
> proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a
> portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be
> REALLY determined to do it.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a
> > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will
> > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > >
> > > > Jeeps especially
> > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > Not.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.

That is what that valve is specifically for.

Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
frozen lake.

We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Will Honea wrote:
>
> When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination,
> they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are
> begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a
> proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a
> portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be
> REALLY determined to do it.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a
> > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will
> > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > >
> > > > Jeeps especially
> > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > Not.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...

And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
brakes or anti skid brakes.

They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
line and not slide sideways or do 360's.

All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
pickups and wagons that came with it.

I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
pedal.

If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
should be changed ASAP.

Mike

Bob wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
>
> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> >
> > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >
> > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > blink.
> >
> > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> >
> > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> >
> > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...

And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
brakes or anti skid brakes.

They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
line and not slide sideways or do 360's.

All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
pickups and wagons that came with it.

I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
pedal.

If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
should be changed ASAP.

Mike

Bob wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
>
> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> >
> > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >
> > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > blink.
> >
> > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> >
> > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> >
> > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

You are correct, I didn't really spit that out right...

And yes, if your Jeep is newer than 1974 you do have rear anti lock
brakes or anti skid brakes.

They started putting a combination valve in them for safety reasons to
prevent rear wheel lock up at speed so you can panic brake in a straight
line and not slide sideways or do 360's.

All newer cars have them. At first it was only utility vehicles,
pickups and wagons that came with it.

I remember my Dad getting his first wagon that had rear anti skid
system.. He was really pleased with the difference in winter driving
being able to brake straight without having to pump the crap out of the
pedal.

If you try it, you will find you can lock the front wheels up and the
rears won't lock until you are almost at a complete stop. If you can
lock your rear wheels at speed, you have a broken combination valve that
should be changed ASAP.

Mike

Bob wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
> the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
> one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
> four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
> seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
> somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
> a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
> when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
> you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
> in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
> equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
> up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
> flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.
>
> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> > Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
> >
> > When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> > tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >
> > If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> > and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> > blink.
> >
> > People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> > have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
> >
> > Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> > easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
> >
> > If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> > brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> > drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>>
>> > Jeeps especially
>> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>>
>> Not.
>>
>
> Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> lock to allow straight line panic braking.
>
> They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
like but that doesn't make it so.

> I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> books.

Which books?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>>
>> > Jeeps especially
>> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>>
>> Not.
>>
>
> Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> lock to allow straight line panic braking.
>
> They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
like but that doesn't make it so.

> I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> books.

Which books?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>>
>> > Jeeps especially
>> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>>
>> Not.
>>
>
> Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> lock to allow straight line panic braking.
>
> They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
like but that doesn't make it so.

> I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> books.

Which books?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:

> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
ABS system, which it is not.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:

> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
ABS system, which it is not.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:

> And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
ABS system, which it is not.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?

Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
butt.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?

Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
butt.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?

Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
butt.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
>
> That is what that valve is specifically for.
>
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> frozen lake.
>
> We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.

That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!

All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
>
> That is what that valve is specifically for.
>
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> frozen lake.
>
> We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.

That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!

All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
>
> That is what that valve is specifically for.
>
> Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> frozen lake.
>
> We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.

That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!

All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >>
> >> > Jeeps especially
> >> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >>
> >> Not.
> >>
> >
> > Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> > Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> > advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> > lock to allow straight line panic braking.
> >
> > They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.
>
> They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
> toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
> important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
> The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
> like but that doesn't make it so.
>
> > I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> > books.
>
> Which books?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning valve
part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, etc.

That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section provides
balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing the rear
line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."

Simple eh?

And they even managed to do it before computers.

Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't believe
what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring to.

I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock under
hard braking.

I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
to you before and have tried to explain it.

If you don't believe it, take the sucker out and try your brakes or even
easier start using your e-brake to stop and see what happens.

Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
posted both here and in the last thread on this.

I am not mistaken on this.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >>
> >> > Jeeps especially
> >> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >>
> >> Not.
> >>
> >
> > Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> > Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> > advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> > lock to allow straight line panic braking.
> >
> > They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.
>
> They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
> toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
> important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
> The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
> like but that doesn't make it so.
>
> > I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> > books.
>
> Which books?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning valve
part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, etc.

That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section provides
balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing the rear
line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."

Simple eh?

And they even managed to do it before computers.

Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't believe
what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring to.

I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock under
hard braking.

I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
to you before and have tried to explain it.

If you don't believe it, take the sucker out and try your brakes or even
easier start using your e-brake to stop and see what happens.

Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
posted both here and in the last thread on this.

I am not mistaken on this.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 07 Jan 2004 07:10 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >>
> >> > Jeeps especially
> >> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> >>
> >> Not.
> >>
> >
> > Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
> > Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
> > advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
> > lock to allow straight line panic braking.
> >
> > They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.
>
> They didn't call it ABS, because it isn't an ABS system. It works
> toward the same goal, but the difference in how it gets there is
> important. ABS uses wheel speed sensors, a control unit and a modulator.
> The combination valve is just a valve. You can call it whatever you
> like but that doesn't make it so.
>
> > I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
> > books.
>
> Which books?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------

Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning valve
part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's, etc.

That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section provides
balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing the rear
line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."

Simple eh?

And they even managed to do it before computers.

Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't believe
what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring to.

I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock under
hard braking.

I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
to you before and have tried to explain it.

If you don't believe it, take the sucker out and try your brakes or even
easier start using your e-brake to stop and see what happens.

Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
posted both here and in the last thread on this.

I am not mistaken on this.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That is exactly the function of the valve Will. That is why they put
them in.

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> > 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
> >
> > That is what that valve is specifically for.
> >
> > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> > e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> > frozen lake.
> >
> > We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> > racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.
>
> That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
> inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
> antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
> adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
> I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
> MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
> highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
> really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
> front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
> lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.
>
> That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
> places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
> looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
> haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
> open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
> applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
> get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
> only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
> levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
> relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!
>
> All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
> a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
> them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That is exactly the function of the valve Will. That is why they put
them in.

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> > 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
> >
> > That is what that valve is specifically for.
> >
> > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> > e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> > frozen lake.
> >
> > We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> > racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.
>
> That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
> inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
> antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
> adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
> I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
> MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
> highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
> really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
> front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
> lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.
>
> That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
> places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
> looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
> haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
> open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
> applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
> get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
> only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
> levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
> relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!
>
> All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
> a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
> them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That is exactly the function of the valve Will. That is why they put
them in.

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:15:21 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
> > 200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.
> >
> > That is what that valve is specifically for.
> >
> > Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
> > e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
> > frozen lake.
> >
> > We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
> > racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.
>
> That's probably more a function of the particular valve than an
> inherent characteristic of the system. Most of my observations on the
> antilock brakes actually comes from pickups where load sensing
> adjusters are common as well, so that will make a difference. The day
> I forgot to reconnect the load sensor lever and tried to stop when the
> MJ was empty with the load sensor saying I was on the bump stops was
> highly enlightening, to say the least <g>. Those proportioners are
> really a very simple regulator that keep the pressure differential
> front-to-rear at some pretty much fixed ratio so in theory you can
> lock everything solid but as you point out it's not easy.
>
> That little trick with the emergency brake is useful in a lot of
> places but the foot operated ebrake makes it a real PITA to use. I've
> looked at replacing mine with the hand-operated type several times but
> haven't actually tried to change it over. For me, I almost have to
> open the door to have enough room to clear the steering wheel when
> applying the ebrake. Plus, it's hard to feather how much braking you
> get with it. Combined with a manual tranny it makes for 4 pedals and
> only 2 feet. Now add in the release lever and you have 4 pedals, 2
> levers, and 1 steering wheel - all ------ out in exactly the wrong
> relative positions for only 2 feet and 2 hands. ARRGGH!
>
> All of my kids have been run thru the exercise of that rear ebrake on
> a long, wide runway. It is a real eye opener for them when you tell
> them to stop from 60mph or so using ONLY the ebrake.
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>

That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is
certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive
form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>

That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is
certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive
form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
>
> > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
>
> According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> ABS system, which it is not.
>

That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is
certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive
form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-)

Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the
question, he was LOOKING for an answer.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3FFB7F9D.8323CDA@cox.net...
> Not all of us are Technical Writers, some of us write the way we
> talk.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Technically, it's the sort of ANSWER you were looking for :-).

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-)

Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the
question, he was LOOKING for an answer.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3FFB7F9D.8323CDA@cox.net...
> Not all of us are Technical Writers, some of us write the way we
> talk.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Technically, it's the sort of ANSWER you were looking for :-).

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

That was three jobs ago Bill. Sheesh, can't you keep up at all? ;-)

Regardless of the kind of writer one happens to be, the OP already had the
question, he was LOOKING for an answer.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3FFB7F9D.8323CDA@cox.net...
> Not all of us are Technical Writers, some of us write the way we
> talk.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Technically, it's the sort of ANSWER you were looking for :-).

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

CRWLR wrote:
>
> "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
> >
> > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
> > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> >
> > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> > ABS system, which it is not.
> >
>
> That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It is
> certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a primitive
> form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.

Wow, I am amazed.

There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve.

That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking.

That 'is' the design principle of the thing.

What doe the acronym ABS mean?

I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken?

The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking
the rear wheels.

What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or
to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong?

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's