Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Hi Lon,
The valve was another safety feature that came along with the
primary and secondary master cylinder, designed to shut off and axle
that is leaking along with it's idiot warning light switch.
Proportioning was handled by the width of the shoes and size of their
slave cylinders
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Part of the reason for the proportioning valve is due to the amount of
pressure needed for disk brakes vs. the drum type. The disk brakes
take considerably more pressure to operate properly than do the drums.
The drums also have the advantage that they can use the rotation to
mechanically increase the effective braking. The other part of the
answer is as Bill said: isolating and splitting the brake system to
use dual chamber master cylinders required it to balance the system.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:07:38 UTC "L0nD0t.$t0we11"
<"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote:

> Roughly 1/7/04 13:48, CRWLR's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
> > "power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
> > Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
> > brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
> > brakes were properly adjusted.
> >
>
> Or on a combination disc/drum brake system or pure drum/drum or
> anywhere that weight transfer unloads the rears so they tend to
> lock up if fed the same hydraulic pressure as the fronts.
>
> Actually I've been wondering why this topic is relevant for Jeeps?
> Is the addition of a brake proportioning valve some sort of
> recent ["recent" in terms of someone other than Bill H.]
> mod or something?
>
> I can remember drum/drum brake systems that had a proportioning
> valve to send more to the front brakes to avoid rear lockup
> due to weight transfer waaayyyyy back on sports cars and
> in the 60's on 'merkin ones.
>


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA

(this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
ratios... terminology differences)

--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFD7388.40EB89E5@sympatico.ca...
> Ok, what 'should' I call it?
>
> As I mentioned the term ABS didn't exist back when the valve came
> out....
>
> I sure wish I could find the old vehicle advertisements where this was
> advertised as rear anti skid or rear anti lock brakes.
>
> That is sure what my Dad figured he bought....
>
> Mike
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
> >
> > On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >
> > > Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> > > valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> > > provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> > > the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
> > >
> > > Simple eh?
> > >
> > > And they even managed to do it before computers.
> > >
> > > Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> > > believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> > > to.
> >
> > You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
> > an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
> > proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
> > purpose.
> >
> > > I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> > > absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> > > under hard braking.
> >
> > I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.
> >
> > > I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> > > to you before and have tried to explain it.
> >
> > I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
> > reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
> > system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
> > as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
> > newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
> > difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
> > controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it
is),
> > but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
> > less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
> > very different than what they are expecting.
> >
> > > Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> > > posted both here and in the last thread on this.
> >
> > If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
> > of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
> > whether or not they are equipped with ABS:
> >
> > [begin quoted material]
> > ABS
> > Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
> > use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
> > regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
> > computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
> > it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
> > that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
> > then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
> > regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
> > to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick
surfaces.
> > ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
> > [end quoted material]
> >
> > This definition was found at:
http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
> > library.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Debate skills 101
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

JimG wrote:
>
> I know... you can call it "Brake System that Anti-locks" or BSA
>
> (this is starting to read like the debate CRWLR and myself had about gear
> ratios... terminology differences)
>
> --
> JimG
> 80' CJ-7 258 CID
> 35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
> D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
> 4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
> Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
> Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries