Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

LOL!

Good points.

Mike

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" wrote:
>
> Roughly 1/7/04 12:27, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > What doe the acronym ABS mean?
>
> Pretty much whatever the automobile engineers and marketing
> flakes say it means.
> >
> > I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken?
>
> Yes.
> >
> > The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking
> > the rear wheels.
>
> Which has nothing to do with ABS, which I am reasonably sure
> you already knew but are merely giving someone a deserved
> rough time.
> >
> > What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or
> > to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong?
>
> You're wrong. That is a proportioning valve. Or if
> you insist on an acronym, a PV. Or even perhaps
> RWALPV.
>
> Dunno what the fraud laws are up there, but you wouldn't want
> to try your argument as a sales pitch or even lawsuit defense
> for calling the proportioning valve an anti skid brake system
> or anti lock brake system and sell or advertise it as such
> down in BSE land.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca...
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
> > >
> > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure
as
> > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> > >
> > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> > > ABS system, which it is not.
> > >
> >
> > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It
is
> > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a
primitive
> > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.
>
> Wow, I am amazed.
>
> There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve.
>
> That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking.
>

I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
"power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
brakes were properly adjusted.



> That 'is' the design principle of the thing.
>
> What doe the acronym ABS mean?
>
> I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken?
>
No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System.
But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system.


> The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking
> the rear wheels.
>
> What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or
> to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong?
>

Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS
system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when
you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of
braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they
are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the
braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is
there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to
the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means
the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure
the brakes get is too small.

Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well,
it is not an intent of the valve.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca...
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
> > >
> > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure
as
> > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> > >
> > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> > > ABS system, which it is not.
> > >
> >
> > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It
is
> > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a
primitive
> > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.
>
> Wow, I am amazed.
>
> There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve.
>
> That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking.
>

I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
"power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
brakes were properly adjusted.



> That 'is' the design principle of the thing.
>
> What doe the acronym ABS mean?
>
> I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken?
>
No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System.
But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system.


> The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking
> the rear wheels.
>
> What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or
> to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong?
>

Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS
system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when
you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of
braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they
are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the
braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is
there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to
the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means
the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure
the brakes get is too small.

Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well,
it is not an intent of the valve.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FFC6BCC.6C2CC815@sympatico.ca...
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040107085049493-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 07 Jan 2004 06:50 AM, Bob posted the following:
> > >
> > > > And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
> > > > antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
> > > > but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
> > > > CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure
as
> > > > heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)
> > >
> > > According to Mike, the proportioning valve should be classified as an
> > > ABS system, which it is not.
> > >
> >
> > That's right Del, brakes that fail to lock are not necessarily ABS. It
is
> > certainly not an ABS system by intent. It might turn out to be a
primitive
> > form of ABS, but there was no design theory that made this happen.
>
> Wow, I am amazed.
>
> There is one and only one reason for a proportioning valve.
>
> That is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up when hard braking.
>

I always thought the job of the portioning valve was to balance the braking
"power" equally, or proportionally, between the front and rear brakes.
Without the portioning valve, the rear brakes, especially on a front disc
brake system would not have the proper braking pressure appled even if the
brakes were properly adjusted.



> That 'is' the design principle of the thing.
>
> What doe the acronym ABS mean?
>
> I always thought it meant 'anti lock brake system'. Was I mistaken?
>
No, you are not mistaken, ABS does indeed mean Anti-lock Braking System.
But, the portioning valve by itself does not constitute an ABS system.


> The proportioning valve is there to 'prevent' the brakes from locking
> the rear wheels.
>
> What does 'anti lock' mean? Could it mean to go against locking up or
> to 'prevent' the brakes from locking the rear wheels or am I wrong?
>

Well, that very well may be a byproduct of the portioning valve, but an ABS
system is much more than that. If there was no portining valve, then when
you mashed the brake pedal, all four wheels would get the same amount of
braking force applied, but the front brakes need to do more work, or they
are simply capable of doing more work, so the portioning valve equalizes the
braking force applied to the front and rear brakes. The portioning valve is
there to properly proportion the braking power from the master cylinder to
the front and rear brakes. If the rear brakes fail to lock, then that means
the traction they get is too great for the brakes, or the braking pressure
the brakes get is too small.

Either way, this is an indicator of a braking system that isn't workng well,
it is not an intent of the valve.

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?
>
> Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
> butt.

Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep
the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it
ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry,
refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control
unit, and a modulating unit.

Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my
TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have
been pissed.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?
>
> Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
> butt.

Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep
the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it
ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry,
refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control
unit, and a modulating unit.

Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my
TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have
been pissed.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 09:39 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, do you know why they put a combination valve in Jeeps?
>
> Hint: It isn't just there to make bleeding the brakes a pain in the
> butt.

Yes, I know what the damned valve does. Just because it serves to keep
the rear wheels from locking up first in most conditions doesn't make it
ABS. The term ABS, as accepted by the entire automotive industry,
refers to an active system which includes wheel speed sensors, a control
unit, and a modulating unit.

Let me put it this way. After paying hundreds of dollars for ABS in my
TJ, if all they had given me was the proportioning valve, I would have
been pissed.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> etc.
>
> That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
>
> Simple eh?
>
> And they even managed to do it before computers.
>
> Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> to.

You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
purpose.

> I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> under hard braking.

I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.

> I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> to you before and have tried to explain it.

I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is),
but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
very different than what they are expecting.

> Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> posted both here and in the last thread on this.

If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
whether or not they are equipped with ABS:

[begin quoted material]
ABS
Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces.
ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
[end quoted material]

This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
library.html

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> etc.
>
> That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
>
> Simple eh?
>
> And they even managed to do it before computers.
>
> Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> to.

You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
purpose.

> I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> under hard braking.

I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.

> I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> to you before and have tried to explain it.

I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is),
but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
very different than what they are expecting.

> Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> posted both here and in the last thread on this.

If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
whether or not they are equipped with ABS:

[begin quoted material]
ABS
Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces.
ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
[end quoted material]

This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
library.html

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 07 Jan 2004 10:03 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:

> Del, there is one reason and one reason only for the proportioning
> valve part of the combination valve they put in Jeeps, pickups, SUV's,
> etc.
>
> That is, to quote the Haynes manual, "The proportioner section
> provides balanced front-to-rear pressure during hard braking, reducing
> the rear line pressure so the wheels don't lock up."
>
> Simple eh?
>
> And they even managed to do it before computers.
>
> Well crap Del, I just went and looked and it was you that didn't
> believe what a proportioning valve was for in the post I am referring
> to.

You had the terminology wrong then, and you have it wrong now. ABS is
an industry term referring to a specific type of system and a
proportioning valve ain't it, even if they work to the same overall
purpose.

> I am sorry if you can't grasp the basics of this valve, but there is
> absolutely no other use for it 'Except' to prevent rear wheel lock
> under hard braking.

I understand how the valve works. That is not at issue.

> I am not going to argue this further with you. I provided book quotes
> to you before and have tried to explain it.

I understand your position, there is no need to explain it further. I
reject your expanded definition of the industry term "antilock braking
system" because it is incorrect. You should expect an argument as long
as you continue to post your alternate use of the term ABS in this
newsgroup, which is also read by people who do not understand the
difference between the proportioning valve and an active, electronically
controlled ABS system. This may seem like a stupid argument (and it is),
but if your personal definition of ABS goes unchallenged it could cause
less knowledgable readers to think they have, or are getting, something
very different than what they are expecting.

> Or try to come up with something in writing that refutes what I have
> posted both here and in the last thread on this.

If that is what it is going to take, fine. Notice there is no mention
of the proportioning valve, which all current production vehicles have
whether or not they are equipped with ABS:

[begin quoted material]
ABS
Acronym for "Anti-lock Brake System." Vehicles equipped with ABS
use wheel speed sensors and a computer-controlled brake pressure
regulator to prevent wheel lock-up during sudden stops. When the
computer senses one wheel is slowing faster than the others (indicating
it is about to lock-up and skid), the computer reduces brake pressure to
that wheel by momentarily isolating brake pressure, releasing pressure
then reapplying pressure in rapid sequence. This allows the wheel to
regain traction so the vehicle doesn?t skid. ABS also allows the driver
to maintain steering control while braking hard on wet or slick surfaces.
ABS improves braking safety on wet or slick surfaces.
[end quoted material]

This definition was found at: http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/
library.html

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/