Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

On 06 Jan 2004 11:09 PM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> Just for you Del, I rescanned the page with it's page number in it's
> entirety, with the index which tells you it falls under General
> Service Information Section: http://www.----------.com/sureTrack.jpg I
> looked under Ford, GM, International, and American Motors indexes to
> see if they referenced the page, but no. I guess it's something old
> mechanics just know, like I worked on a Scout Travelall and Jeep
> Wagoneer trailer packages with the Sure-Track, so you just have to
> take my word for it. A searched the internet, only found them back to
> '69 Ford products up only. The Jeep was about 1964, I would guess.
> God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O mailto:--------------------

Thanks, I mostly was yanking your chain but the text that went along
with that is really interesting. That actually is a rudimentary ABS
system complete with the eddy current type speed sensor and modulator,
although not computerized. So at least they were trying. Not sure I'd
want to drive that system though. I understand if you are biased
against ABS after years of working on earlier systems but the new ones
actually work pretty well, honest. Mine saved an idiot in a Rav4 from
becoming a crumple zone for my TJ the day before yesterday.

I have worked on vehicles of that era but they were british, never had
much interest in American cars, other than trucks and 4x4s. About all
that I have done with the CJ-5 is pull an axleshaft to find out that I
have the late rear axle with 30 spline, one piece shafts. I'm not going
to touch it until I can take it down to the frame, and it isn't a high
priority project.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Ok, I think I see what you're trying to get at: the fact that since
the front and rear axle are locked together in 4wd pt, if you lock up
one set of wheels (front or back), you could effectively lock up all
four. I can see that as somewhat of a possible concern. However, it
seemed at first like you were implying the number of driving wheels
somehow had some relationship to how many wheels could be locked up in
a skid; moreover, that you can't lock up all four wheels in a skid
when in 2wd mode or in a 2wd vehicle. This, of course, is wrong (if
you disagree, please set me straight!); you can skid all four wheels
in ANY car (barring antilock braking or traction control system
equipped cars, about which I care not). I'm just saying, you can lock
up all four wheels and slide sideways into a ditch/do 360s in nothing
flat with a 2wd car just as easily as you can in a 4x4 PT vehicle.

And what are you talking about with the "Jeeps especially have rear
antilock brakes" statement? Yeah, sure, it's available as an option,
but I think a large majority of jeeps, and know a large majority of
CARS out there don't necessarily have antilock rear brakes. (I sure as
heck don't have antilock rear brakes on my D44!)

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3FFB1D34.F426DA64@sympatico.ca>...
> Not knowing how to drive in 4x4 is more likely.
>
> When you hit the brakes in a 2 wheel drive, you only lock up the front
> tires so you lose steering until you pump the pedal. Jeeps especially
> have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> If you are in 4x4 part time and hit the brakes, you lock up all 4 wheels
> and will slide sideways into the ditch or do 360's faster than you can
> blink.
>
> People don't know this until it is too late. I even know folks that
> have done exactly that and still after not known why it happened.
>
> Some folks also don't realize just because you can get going faster
> easier, you sure can't stop any faster.
>
> If you leave the room to maneuver and know what happens when you hit the
> brakes, then keeping up with the transport trucks is a good speed to
> drive in my opinion and around here that is between 55 and 65 mph.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>
> > Jeeps especially
> > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
>
> Not.
>

Yup, they started using a combination valve in utility vehicles like
Jeeps, pickups and station wagons back in the 70's and it 'was'
advertised as rear anti lock brakes and said it prevented rear wheel
lock to allow straight line panic braking.

They didn't call it 'ABS', that is a new term.

I just had this discussion with someone else here and I quoted the
books.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Re: highway speed in full time 4X4?
 

I can lock them up for the last 2 or 3 feet of a stop if I have all my
200 lb on it, but no way they will lock at speed.

That is what that valve is specifically for.

Locking the rear wheels at speed causes instant 360's. Try mashing the
e-brake on while driving 50 mph across an empty parking lot or on a
frozen lake.

We actually use this method for getting around corners fast when ice
racing, especially in front wheel drive cars.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Will Honea wrote:
>
> When I put my 230 pounds on the brake pedal with due determination,
> they damned sure WILL lockup - but long after the front wheels are
> begging for mercy. All a matter of degree, but that is a
> proportioning valve, not a modulating valve and at some point even a
> portion of the force is sufficient to lock them. You just have to be
> REALLY determined to do it.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:59:38 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NOSPAMgbronline.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes they do. Although not electronic ABS, the proportioning valve acts as a
> > primitive rear antilock brake system. Plain and simple, the rear wheels will
> > NOT lock up, no matter how hard you mash the brake pedal.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
> > news:20040106122303346-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > On 06 Jan 2004 11:40 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > >
> > > > Jeeps especially
> > > > have rear anti lock brakes, have since the 70's.
> > >
> > > Not.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>